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1. tundaman

   Fresh-Faced Recruit

   Joined: Mar 2010

   +11
   08/05, 08:02am | report spam | close reply

   too little, too late

   Just when Apple itself is moving forward and away from the old mouse paradigm and made clear, with magic trackpad, that magic mouse was only a transitioning tool to the new all touch UI era, there goes our beloved M$ once again trying to copy old Apple's technology a year late...
   
   And it even got more pathetic with that "teaser campaign" thing, with tens(not hundreds) of M$ twitter fans guessing and screaming with joy: "it's a TouchPad!"
   
   

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1. Sukoshi

   Fresh-Faced Recruit

   Joined: Aug 2009

   +7
   08/05, 08:37am | report spam | close reply

   Song

   Microsoft should just adopt Prince's 1999 as their theme song for all events and unveilings.

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1. chas_m

   Moderator
   

   Joined: Aug 2001

   +7
   08/05, 09:10am | report spam | (1 reply) close | reply

   Well I'll Be

   Microsoft copying something Apple did first. That's gotta be a first. You sure don't see that everyday, by golly.
   
   Wow, I'm shocked. This could be the start of a terrible trend, and hurt Microsoft's long record as the leading innovator in the technology arena. I'd sure hate to see them do this a second time ...

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1. Foe Hammer

   Fresh-Faced Recruit

   Joined: Feb 2005

   +8
   08/05, 09:26am | report spam | close reply

   Microsoft Research

   "It was originally the result of a research project into a multi-touch mouse whose details were published just as Apple was shipping its own device."
   
   Top Ten Microsoft New Product Research Web Sites
   
   1. www.apple.com
   2. www.macnn.com
   3. www.apple.com
   4. www.macrumors.com
   5. www.apple.com
   6. www.macworld.com
   7. www.apple.com
   8. www.appleinsider.com
   9. www.apple.com
   10. www.apple.com

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1. testudo

   Forum Regular

   Joined: Aug 2001

   +2
   08/05, 09:41am | report spam | close reply

   Re: too little, too late

   If you think that somehow the mouse is magically going away because Apple decided to release a track pad, you're just dreaming.
   
   There have been many trackpads available for computer use, as well as other mouse killers like trackballs. They still haven't taken over, even after all these years. h***, too many people still grab a mouse to use with their track-padded laptops.
   
   

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1. MyRightEye

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   Joined: Apr 2008

   +5
   08/05, 09:43am | report spam | close reply

   "Redmond, Start Your Photocopiers"

   Just a heads up Ballmer, IT WAS SARCASM!!!!

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1. brainworks

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   Joined: Apr 2009

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   08/05, 10:00am | report spam | close reply

   Other standalone trackpads?

   Yeah of course you need a mouse if the trackpad is stuck to the keyboard. Are there other standalone brands? I have been looking for the last few years

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1. tundaman

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   Joined: Mar 2010

   +6
   08/05, 10:30am | report spam | close reply

   re: testudo

   Please, read what was wrote before criticize.
   
   I never said that trackpads will kill mouse, I just pointed out to what seems to be Apple intentions on that matter. Only time will tell.
   
   I just said that M$, once again, is trying to capitalize on other people old tech(just like, Zune, MS Phone, etc.), which is a UNDENIABLE FACT, not speculation.
   
   About previous trackpads/trackballs implementations, I think iPad gives us a pretty good example about what can be achieved with a good implementation of one technology to be mass adopted, even if somebody tried it before with no luck.
   
   Besides, I think nowadays no one should cast doubt in Apple's ability to change the status quo, unless they're ready to bite their own tongue in the near future.
   
   

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1. Foe Hammer

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   Joined: Feb 2005

   +3
   08/05, 10:36am | report spam | close reply

   Re: Too much testudo, not late enough

   Still using your floppy disks, eh testy?
   
   If you think that somehow the mouse is magically not going to go away at some point, you're also dreaming -- at Inception-worthy levels. As tundaman indicated, this is evolution at work. Far better to be able to recognize it as it's happening than after (or well after) it has happened.
   
   As to the numerous failed attempts before: who designed them? Yes, surprisingly enough it IS all about design. Not just aesthetic design, but functional design. Trackballs (large ball variety) never were good at either (did Apple ever make one?) But what about the trackball on the Apple Mighty Mouse you say? Hmmm. A counter-example you have found, no? Well, no. The little trackball controls scrolling but NOT the cursor - that was still left to the mouse. But what about the trackpads built into Apple's existing laptops you holler - you know, the ones they are selling RIGHT NOW? This must be the definitive and all-elusive counter-example that finally proves your case beyond a shadow of a doubt, right? Well, wrong again turtle-breath.
   
   A laptop is by its nature something that must be produced as a self-contained system. So although users may opt to add an external mouse, hard drive, etc., the laptop must be able to be reasonably functional without the need for any of those. That means some kind of pointing device must be included. Not many options here, either for what device to include and for where to locate it. Is the trackpad on a laptop (let's be bold and say any laptop) the most functional pointing device? Probably not. Is it the best device given the tradeoffs that must be made? Probably so.
   
   But here's a little exercise for you: go to your desktop system. Run your mouse cable beneath your keyboard so that the mouse ends up on the desk in front of the spacebar (alternately, just put your wireless mouse in front of your keyboard in the same spot.) Now use your computer for a week all the while keeping the mouse within a 3" square of desk space in front of your space bar. Do you suddenly want a different mouse/trackpad/trackball/trackanything located someplace different?
   
   Any more questions as to why a stationary external pointing device with the flexibility of the Magic Trackpad is creating such a buzz?

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1. revco

   Fresh-Faced Recruit

   Joined: May 2005

   -1
   08/05, 10:43am | report spam | close reply

   Oh I don't know...

   I think I'd try it because it's black and will probably have better battery life than Apple's mouse.

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1. testudo

   Forum Regular

   Joined: Aug 2001

   -2
   08/05, 01:02pm | report spam | close reply

   Re: Too much testudo, not late enough

   If you think that somehow the mouse is magically not going to go away at some point, you're also dreaming -- at Inception-worthy levels. As tundaman indicated, this is evolution at work. Far better to be able to recognize it as it's happening than after (or well after) it has happened.
   
   Oh, right, I forget. We live in the world of "It doesn't matter when it happens, if it happens, we get to take credit".
   
   So if 10 years down the road, mice start to become scarce, somehow we'll place Apple on some grand pedastal and say "Look, they were so right!". Just like how someone says for 10 years "Apple's on the verge of releasing a cell phone!" and when they do, they proclaim "See, I told you!".
   
   But what if the track pad doesn't replace the mouse? Is it just "Apple is looking so far ahead, you idiots looking at 5 years down the road are just too short-sighted!"? And if something completely different than a track pad replaces a mouse, do we get to mention Apple's failed mouse replacement strategy? Or do we just talk about how Apple knew the mouse was going away, and they were there?
   
   You know, just like with floppies. When Apple took them out, only they foresaw their demise. Sure, most everyone else kept them for another 5 years, because the idiot public actually was still using them, but since when should the consumer decide what should be used. And who cares if Apple was so far ahead of things that most users were without any way to get any file off their computers. And there was no backup possibilities without a network. That don't matter. Apple led us to the demise of the floppy! If not for them, we'd be using 1.44 disks to this day.

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1. wrenchy

   Forum Regular

   Joined: Nov 2009

   +1
   08/05, 01:38pm | report spam | close reply

   What is

   
   a 1.44 disk? Did Apple invent it?

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1. tundaman

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   Joined: Mar 2010

   +4
   08/05, 02:40pm | report spam | close reply

   Cast your vote now: Testudo for M$ CEO

   Man... with so many eloquent and well grounded arguments(insert sarcasm here), and that screaming anti-apple biasing, I think M$ board should really consider you as Steve "monkey boy" Baldmer successor, or at least make you his PR guy.
   
   It would be so good for them... and surely hilarious for us!
   
   

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1. Foe Hammer

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   Joined: Feb 2005

   +1
   08/05, 02:43pm | report spam | close reply

   Some Floppy Logic There, Testy

   The public uses what the manufacturers give it. In case you haven't noticed, most computers are built by the manufacturers, not the public. Keep building computers with floppy drives and the public will demand content and blank floppy disks (the public is funny like that: keep building VHS video recorders and the public keeps demanding content and blank VHS tapes. There really is a pattern here if you look closely enough.)
   
   Apple ditched the floppy disk. That energized and encouraged those that were capable of taking the leap forward and foreseeing a better (and higher storage capacity) world to do so - and it scared the h*** out of those who favored the status quo. Sadly, innovation in the world of computing is being driven primarily by one company at the moment. Apple leads, the rest follow - and sometimes that has taken 5 to 10 years for the real stragglers.
   
   So what if the trackpad doesn't replace the mouse? Well, I'm sure you'll still be here to remind us.

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1. Foe Hammer

   Fresh-Faced Recruit

   Joined: Feb 2005

   0
   08/05, 02:48pm | report spam | close reply

   And Even More Magic ...

   http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/theres-magic-on-your-desktop/

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1. dliup

   Fresh-Faced Recruit

   Joined: Jan 2006

   +1
   08/05, 02:54pm | report spam | close reply

   RE: Testudo for M$ CEO

   Testudo could be Steve Ballmer drunk off his ZuneSuckingAss.

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1. testudo

   Forum Regular

   Joined: Aug 2001

   -1
   08/05, 05:41pm | report spam | close reply

   Re: some floppy logic

   The public uses what the manufacturers give it.
   
   Really? Wow, I never thought of that. I always thought the public used what they weren't given. Not sure how they could do that, but that's what I always thought.
   
   In case you haven't noticed, most computers are built by the manufacturers, not the public.
   
   Actually, many computers are built by the public. You go to your favorite computer web store, pick a computer, choose the options you want, and off you go!
   
   Keep building computers with floppy drives and the public will demand content and blank floppy disks
   
   Um, no. Keep building computers with floppy disk drives as long as the public shows demand for floppy disk drives. Dell made it an option years and years ago, and stayed an option for a long while. Is that because Dell doesn't understand they could save money by not offering it? No, it's because there were enough people wanting it.
   
   Apple ditched the floppy disk. That energized and encouraged those that were capable of taking the leap forward and foreseeing a better (and higher storage capacity) world to do so
   
   Too bad that world did not include Apple, for when they dropped the floppy disk, they didn't give their users any better device to replace it. They just said "Hey, you don't need floppies!"
   
   And that's the part everyone conveniently dismisses. Apple ditched the floppies, but they were really, really late to get into the CD-R and CD-RW world. These were commonplace in Windows boxes before Apple finally decided to even make them optional on Macs.
   
   Oh, I know. Apple was really, really, really forward thinking. When they dumped the floppy, they were looking towards all external storage being in the cloud. They were 15 years ahead of the game there!
   
   - and it scared the h*** out of those who favored the status quo.
   
   Right. Apple computer dropped the floppy disk and it scared all those PC windows users and manufacturers. Why exactly would they care what Apple did, I'm not sure. But apparently as Apple goes in 1998, so goes the world.
   
   Sadly, innovation in the world of computing is being driven primarily by one company at the moment. Apple leads, the rest follow - and sometimes that has taken 5 to 10 years for the real stragglers.
   
   Except for those times where no one follows, like ADC or HD-DVD.
   
   Or when Apple follows but get 'lead' credit (like going to displayport and everyone ignoring Dell pushing into that first).
   
   Or when they don't lead, like with USB 3, where the latest MacPros and iMacs would have been perfect examples of your 'they take the lead!' and yet they didn't. But that's OK. No one has USB 3, right. Apple shouldn't lead, they should wait for others to provide before they get involved.

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1. qazwart

   Fresh-Faced Recruit

   Joined: Apr 2001

   0
   08/05, 08:16pm | report spam | close reply

   While Apple was creating, you guys were presenting

   The MagicMouse came was announced in October 2009 the same month Microsoft was just showing its paper. However, Apple had been using touch trackpads (which was where the MagicMouse got its inspiration from) for the MacBook Pro from the year before.
   
   This might be a problem for Microsoft. They spent a lot of time with studies and papers while Apple simply churned out products. The iPhone had a multi-touch screen, and they simply moved that to the MacPro trackpads when they were refreshed. When that proved popular, Apple created the MagicMouse, and when that didn't do what users really wanted, they created the USB Trackpad.
   
   Basically, Apple took an existing feature (multi-touch) and added to various products bit-by-bit. Meanwhile, Microsoft was building all sorts of proto-types and presenting papers.
   
   Will the multitouch trackpad replace the mouse. I doubt it. There are too many trackpad gestures, and that confuses new users. It's why Apple still uses a one button mouse by default. With a single button, you can't click the wrong one. Beginning users may be more comfortable with a mouse just because it is simpler.
   
   Advanced users might prefer the MultiTouch trackpad. I know I would. Once, you learn all the gestures, it's fantastic. In fact, iMac and Mac Pro users have been crying for such a device since the MacBook Pro got the MultiTouch trackpad. However, when 80% of the user base (including Windows users) don't understand the concept of the second mouse button, I doubt a complex multi-gestured trackpad will be able to completely replace the mouse.
   
   However, I do suspect that the mouse's days as the leading input device is now numbered.

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1. Foe Hammer

   Fresh-Faced Recruit

   Joined: Feb 2005

   +1
   08/05, 09:18pm | report spam | close reply

   Floppy Logic Redux

   The public uses what the manufacturers give it.
   
   Really? Wow, I never thought of that. I always thought the public used what they weren't given. Not sure how they could do that, but that's what I always thought.
   
   Glad I'm here to help you out, testy. See? If you just THINK about these things, you CAN understand them.
   
   In case you haven't noticed, most computers are built by the manufacturers, not the public.
   
   Actually, many computers are built by the public. You go to your favorite computer web store, pick a computer, choose the options you want, and off you go!
   
   Let's see you pick an option that's not offered. Hence, the manufacturer still builds and decides what the public can pick. (You need to work on thinking about this one, but hang in there - I'm still confident you CAN understand it.)
   
   Keep building computers with floppy drives and the public will demand content and blank floppy disks
   
   Um, no. Keep building computers with floppy disk drives as long as the public shows demand for floppy disk drives. Dell made it an option years and years ago, and stayed an option for a long while. Is that because Dell doesn't understand they could save money by not offering it? No, it's because there were enough people wanting it.
   
   Um, yes. People still want cigarettes. Doesn't mean it's the right thing for them or the world. (Now for a REAL intellectual challenge for you: look up "argumentum ad populum" so you'll recognize it, especially when you're using it.)
   
   Apple ditched the floppy disk. That energized and encouraged those that were capable of taking the leap forward and foreseeing a better (and higher storage capacity) world to do so
   
   Too bad that world did not include Apple, for when they dropped the floppy disk, they didn't give their users any better device to replace it. They just said "Hey, you don't need floppies!"
   
   And magically Apple users survived, thrived and successfully made the transition to a floppy-less world ... a world where PC users and manufactures feared to tread for many the moon. (Compare: leader vs. followers.)
   
   And that's the part everyone conveniently dismisses. Apple ditched the floppies, but they were really, really late to get into the CD-R and CD-RW world. These were commonplace in Windows boxes before Apple finally decided to even make them optional on Macs.
   
   Apple's been "late" to lots of things. But for all their latecomer timing they uncannily lead the market in quite a large number of those instances. So was Apple "late" to the CD-R and CD-RW thing? Were these commonplace on PCs back in the day? Sure. Were they living up to their full potential on PCs? Not even close. It takes a leader to make a decision that compels, drives and forces progress into the future. (Legend has it that when Cortez reached the new world, he burned his ships to ensure the full commitment of his people. But fact or legend, left to their own devices, it's not terribly likely that a crowd placed in such a situation would have elected to burn their ships and make such a commitment on their own behalf.)
   
   Oh, I know. Apple was really, really, really forward thinking. When they dumped the floppy, they were looking towards all external storage being in the cloud. They were 15 years ahead of the game there!
   
   Your words - and how do you know you're not right? The cloud (still called "the Internet" at the time) was definitely around. Of course, you could just produce an entity that pointed the industry in a better direction as a counter-example. (I'll check back here in a few months to see how you're coming along.)
   
   - and it scared the h*** out of those who favored the status quo.
   
   Right. Apple computer dropped the floppy disk and it scared all those PC windows users and manufacturers. Why exactly would they care what Apple did, I'm not sure. But apparently as Apple goes in 1998, so goes the world.
   
   And the world did. Not in 1998 (after all, what would some dumb company like Apple know?) So let's keep doing what everyone else is doing. (Pop quiz: recognize this one yet, Testy?)
   
   Sadly, innovation in the world of computing is being driven primarily by one company at the moment. Apple leads, the rest follow - and sometimes that has taken 5 to 10 years for the real stragglers
   
   Except for those times where no one follows, like ADC or HD-DVD.
   
   Note the use of the temporal phrase "at the moment" ... Has Apple been pushing ADC or HD-DVD as of late? (I do seem to recall at least one company making an HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 awhile back as well. Perhaps you can help me remember the name of that little enterprise.)
   
   Or when Apple follows but get 'lead' credit (like going to displayport and everyone ignoring Dell pushing into that first).
   
   Now how could such a heinous injustice ever be foisted on the world? I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you! How could anyone ignore something that ... uh ... who did again?
   
   Or when they don't lead, like with USB 3, where the latest MacPros and iMacs would have been perfect examples of your 'they take the lead!' and yet they didn't. But that's OK. No one has USB 3, right. Apple shouldn't lead, they should wait for others to provide before they get involved.
   
   Even leaders have to pace themselves. It's a never-ending marathon, not a sprint. And at Apple's present pace, they're going to be a leader of this marathon for a long, long time. Whether you like it or not.